Login/New-Account | Search | Submit a Story! | Greplaw!??
 
GrepLaw
- About
- FAQ
- Discussions
- Messages
- Topics
- Authors

- Preferences
- Older Stuff
- Past Polls
- Submit Story
- XML/RSS

GrepLaw
This site is a production of the Berkman Center for Internet & Society. Please email if you have questions, contributions, or ideas about improving this site.

F & F
Family

Friends

 
Critique of Lessig's Copyright Tax Suggestion
posted by mpawlo on Saturday January 18, @04:43AM
from the punish-the-poor dept.
Copyright Stanford Professor Lawrence Lessig has a column in the New York Times on the Eldred case with suggestions on how to policy copyright in the future.

Lessig:
'Imagine requiring copyright holders to pay a tax 50 years after a work was published. The tax should be very small, maybe $50 a work.'

Such suggestion would only - as any copyright registration requirements - punish the poor. Private individuals and small and mid-size entreprises do not have the competence, nor the funds, to administer and pay such fees. Further, the tax is not small at all. Any author produces a vast amount of works, even though the author may not be commercially succesful. Only to keep the copyright to my personal home page my children (should I have any) would have to pay some USD 10,000 according to Lessig's suggestion. Still, they may want to maintain my copyright for other reasons than commercial ones. Lessig and many other U.S. scholars misses the point of authorship and moral rights - which is perhaps the most fundamental reason for introducing copyright protection at all, deriving from the ideas developed during the French revolution.



When it comes to Disney and other large corporations I agree with Lessig that it is possible that only works that are worthwhile from a commercial point of view will be renewed, but I guess that in practice Disney and others will rather pay the tax than miss out on a possible opportunity. Poor people - like my children should they not make a lot of money on their own - will have to abandon the copyright or get a mortgage. And they might only benefit on moral grounds from extending the copyright.

Where is the justice in that?

Read Lessig's column in New York Times (free reg. req.).

Libraries Bend to the Feds | Rumsfeld Directive Re: Sensitive Info Online  >

 

 
GrepLaw Login
Nickname:

Password:

[ Create a new account ]

Related Links
  • Lessig's column in New York Times
  • Professor Lawrence Lessig
  • my personal home page
  • More on Copyright
  • Also by mpawlo
  • This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
    Critique of Lessig's Copyright Tax Suggestion | Login/Create an Account | Top | 11 comments | Search Discussion
    Threshold:
    The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
    If you don't need it, don't pay for it (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 18, @09:47AM (#569)

    Further, the tax is not small at all. Any author produces a vast amount of works, even though the author may not be commercially succesful. Only to keep the copyright to my personal home page my children (should I have any) would have to pay some USD 10,000 according to Lessig's suggestion. Still, they may want to maintain my copyright for other reasons than commercial ones.

    I have a hard time understanding why you or your children whould even want to keep a copyright on your current web page(s) 50 years hence. How many people have some work of their parents or grandparents that is over 50 years old and they wish they still had a copyright on it or are making use of a still existing copyright? And for those that are making use of the copyright, would $50 (per work) really prevent you from doing so?

    Re:If you don't need it, don't pay for it (Score:2)
    by mpawlo on Saturday January 18, @11:38AM (#572)
    User #42 Info | http://www.pawlo.com/
    "I have a hard time understanding why you or your children whould even want to keep a copyright on your current web page(s) 50 years hence."

    So do I, but if I (my children) do not get this benefit (only at a relatively high cost), then why should the corporations (at a relatively low cost)?

    Mikael
    First Impressions... (Score:1)
    by Majikthise on Saturday January 18, @10:07AM (#570)
    User #602 Info
    Such suggestion would only - as any copyright registration requirements - punish the poor.

    If the Supreme Court had overturned the retroactive aspects of the 1976 and 1998 acts, then most works old works that were older than about 50-70 years would have been put in the public domain. Punishing the rich and poor alike.

    Up until 1976 registration was always required. The value of having registration would be much greater now than it was in 1975, because it could be cheaply searched at any library if not the whole internet.

    In the proposed compromise there is still no initial registration required. A fee would be useful to pay for the registration system itself. To be less discriminatory the registation fee could be on a sliding scale.

    The public domain benefits the poor more than the rich since the rich could always buy the material they want. If 90% of the old matrial is not registered and it enter the public domain then this benefits the poor.

    Granting the effectively infinite monopoly to the descendants or successor coporations without a system to locate the holder is ridiculous. It means only the rich can afford to discover the holder, and the poor can only assume that the copyright is still valid. No registration punishes the poor.

    Only to keep the copyright to my personal home page my children (should I have any) would have to pay some USD 10,000 according to Lessig's suggestion.

    Your $ 10,000 would be 200 x $50 which would be enough to keep you website in copyright for a total of 250 years. Is this what you mean? Perhaps there is too much confusion about what a "work" would be on the world wide web. Since the purpose is not to generate revenue, I would make the definition of such a "work" more inclusive.

    Any author produces a vast amount of works, even though the author may not be commercially succesful.

    One could imagine a volume discount on registation for individuals (not corporations). The purpose of registration is not to generate revenue, it is:

    to make the copyright holder claim the work is valuable

    to cause works the holder has forgotten to or declined to register to fall into the public domain

    to make possible to easily and cheaply learn if the work is registered and to locate the holder

    The result is that even a teenager could quickly check the public domain status of something before adding it to their homepage. And if it is registered you might be able to locate and email the holder.

    Lessig and many other U.S. scholars misses the point of authorship and moral rights - which is perhaps the most fundamental reason for introducing copyright protection at all, deriving from the ideas developed during the French revolution.

    Ah...the other point of view. I googled a page that seems to discuss this misunderstanding:

    http://elj.warwick.ac.uk/jilt/infosoc/98_1hol d/1.h tm

    I know too little about the effect of "moral rights" to debate them.

    Re:First Impressions... (Score:2)
    by mpawlo on Saturday January 18, @11:34AM (#571)
    User #42 Info | http://www.pawlo.com/
    "Your $ 10,000 would be 200 x $50 which would be enough to keep you website in copyright for a total of 250 years."

    You have to do the math again. It is fifty bucks a year and work. I have written some 2.000 articles, not counting 200+ Greplaw submissions, 2000+ Gnuheter submissions and countless mailinglist submissions.

    Mikael
    Re:First Impressions... (Score:2)
    by mpawlo on Saturday January 18, @11:59AM (#573)
    User #42 Info | http://www.pawlo.com/
    "I know too little about the effect of "moral rights" to debate them."

    Basically, moral rights are:
    • the right of integrity
    • the right of attribution


    Lessig's proposal don't deal with such things at all, but only deals with the economical aspects of copyright. It is a common U.S. approach, but still an approach that is hard for me to apprehend. My point is that to the individual publisher and his or her children there may be more reasons to copyright than financial ones, especially in the case of a self-publisher.

    Regards,

    Mikael Pawlo
    This is pure selfishness. (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday January 18, @10:17PM (#574)
    I'm looking to be a paid author/programmer some day, but that doesn't change my opinion that your arguments are selfish. I don't want publishers running amok and getting all the money, but I don't want to be barred from borrowing from great works from the past, either.

    If you had a choice of doubling your salary (by taking a higher-paying job) or halving your living expenses (by moving to a smaller town), all other things being equal, which would you choose?

    It seems to be that the latter option is the more sane one because there's no guarantee that you're going to stay for long at higher-paying job. Same thing with long copyright periods: there's no guarantee that you're going to make much money off it anyway, but if you can borrow tried-and-true works from the past, your chances can increase.

    Lessig and many other U.S. scholars misses the point of authorship and moral rights - which is perhaps the most fundamental reason for introducing copyright protection at all, deriving from the ideas developed during the French revolution.

    This is America, not France. If you would be happier in France, be my guest.

    The American attitude about copyright from the time of the framers straight through much of the twentieth century was that there are no "author's rights"; that copyright was a social bargain - you give us this, and we'll give you that.

    Thomas Jefferson once said very plainly, "[P]atents are not a matter of property." That is the traditional American attitude about copyrights and patents.

    Re:This is pure selfishness. (Score:2)
    by mpawlo on Sunday January 19, @03:22AM (#575)
    User #42 Info | http://www.pawlo.com/
    When I wrote my piece, I didn't know that Lessig still was in litigation with the legislator, but since he is obviously trying to settle, I can appreciate his suggestion. To me it is not good enough. It is like playing soccer and aiming for the bronze medal.

    Right, AOL Time Warner will also benefit from the suggestion (not only Disney), but few individuals can obtain the same upside because of the costs associated with production and distribution. I guess my question is why AOL and Disney should get the work while they give NOTHING back? If you can explain that to me I may actually be convinced.

    I suffer, but Disney doesn't. Disney will prolong and get an extra 25 years. It may also use my works. Okay - so may also you and Larry Lessig and that is the only positive aspect of the proposal. But I think it is overshadowed by the fact that Disney (and its likes) will just strengthen its powers on behalf of individual author's.

    Well,I might want to change my approach if you want to discuss what's feasible to achieve from a lobbying view. Personally I think you should leave the compromises to the Intel and Apple lawyers.

    The answer? Everyone, including me and Disney, gets less protection - no registration, no fees. Scope of protection: extensive fair use plus life + 25 years (should be sufficent to promote any artist's work).

    Actually, I think both the approaches are unlikely to be passed as legislation in the next 25 years, so why not go with the best one (remember: gold medal, not bronze)? It will probably take 20-40 years of endless devotion to achieve substantial changes in the entire system of protection of intellectual property (if its even possible), but hopefully a more balanced system will emerge in the meantime as a result of the debate and endless compromises and the behaviour in the marketplace.

    Do not forget about the Linux example. Creative Commons [creativecommons.org] may receive a "copyright in balance"-gold medal way before the legislator does.

    Best regards,

    Mikael Pawlo
    Ahh... I see... (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Monday January 20, @12:35AM (#578)
    Thank you for pointing this out to me. I'm inclined to agree with you.

    I think that copyright periods and powers should be reduced all around. I don't agree with the "intellectual property" arguements, but I think if we had well-constituted copyright law that those arguments would be legally meaningless (that is, no one would have to agree with one side or the other about the issue to see that the law was good).

    The biggest problem with copyright right now, I think, is that those who purchase software/books/music/movies/etc. don't have the same rights that those who purchase material objects do. Traditionally, buyers could only have restrictions placed on how they use what they buy if they agree to it before they buy the thing. With copyright, buyers have to assume that they have no rights over what they purchase unless the "owner" says they do.

    I think that for art and literature made by indviduals, a lifetime copyright (provide that not too many powers are granted) would not be a disaster. As for work-for-hire, I don't have much sympathy for corporations; I think that 25 years is more than enough time.

    I think I explained this in my first post, but I think that corporations should accept short copyright terms because once their cost of development is paid, they are on no worse ground than anyone else. I say let the free market take over after a reasonable amount of time.

    For individuals, of course, this is different. An individual author is not likely to be able to afford to run his own publishing company, except for e-books. So protecting them from these problems for their life might be a good idea.

    Here's what I think: If authors have too few copyright powers, and you get anarchy, sure. But if they have too many, and you get feudalism. Unfortunately, we are a feudal technocracy right now.

    ah poor price is $1 (Score:1)
    by shareme on Sunday January 19, @03:48PM (#576)
    User #603 Info | http://www.freeroller.net/page/shareme/Weblog
    the poor price is $1 where dfo you see the other second tier in pricing?Sharing improves human soiciety..only closed not sharing can kill the human spirit
    Re:ah poor price is $1 (Score:2)
    by mpawlo on Sunday January 19, @04:12PM (#577)
    User #42 Info | http://www.pawlo.com/
    It appears the figure in the FAQ [stanford.edu] was changed from the New York Times column [nytimes.com], where it is stated:
    "The tax should be very small, maybe $50 a work"

    Regards,

    Mik ael
    Doesn't go far enough... Tax 'em annually (Score:0)
    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday January 21, @09:46AM (#579)
    Real property owners pay an annual property tax because developed property places burdens on society (schools, utilities, fire departments, town halls, archives, libraries, roads, police, jails) etc. Indefinite copyrights also place a burden on society (courts, prisons for violators, rights research, chilling effects, reinventing the wheel, information superhighway, etc.). So, should not copyright holders pay a tax every year on the value of the copyright? If they do not pay, the copyright moves into the public domain. Allow the rights holders to self assess the value every year, with the proviso that anyone can pay the rights holder that amount to bring the work into the public domain (to keep the self-assessments fair). Internationally this helps developing nations, because instead of suffering under copyright restrictions, they can suddenly be making money by such a tax to enforce foreign copyrights. Note that when copyrights were of short duration (like patents) their movement into the public domain compensated society for these external costs -- but not any more since this Supreme Court decision.

    Humanity has the stars in its future, and that future is too important to be lost under the burden of juvenile folly and ignorant superstition. - Isaac Asimov

    [ home | contribute story | older articles | past polls | faq | authors | preferences ]